The above photo is in black and white because it shows the difference between American open end spun 8/2 cotton (below) and ring spun 2/8 cotton (above) more clearly.
Those numbers are used, these days, interchangeably although they do actually have meaning beyond the obvious - 2/8 (and 8/2) cotton is spun to the imperial system of yarn numbering where the value for 1 is 840 yards per pound - for cotton. Other fibres have different values for 1.
So what does that mean?
If 1 equals one pound of cotton fibre spun so that it produces approximately (the numbers are only ever approximate) 840 yards of yarn, the other sizes can be calculated from that by beginning with 840.
For 2/8 (or 8/2) cotton, that means that the spinner or spinning mill has spun 8 times 840 yards of yarn from one pound, then plyed it dividing that number in half.
840 x 8 = 6720/2 = 3360 yards per pound
a 2/10 (or 10/2) yarn would be:
840 x 10 = 8400/2 = 4200 yards per pound
And so on
However!
A yarn is not just how many yards per pound it has. It is also the quality of the fibre it has been spun from and the method of spinning used *and* the number of twists applied to the single and then the ply. No, they won't necessarily be the same.
An open end system is much like woollen spinning - the fibres are disorganized, lots of air is trapped in it, it is loftier and weaker than...
...ring spun yarn which is spun from (generally although not always) longer fibre staple, with fibres aligned, denser with less air trapped in it and stronger than open end spun yarn even when spun from the same quality of fibre as the open end spun yarn.
8/2 is more absorbent than 2/8. 8/2 is dustier than 2/8 (evidenced by the degree of lint left on the loom after weaving a warp using 2/16 for warp and 10/2 and 16/2 for weft).
The only thing the numbers tell is the number of yards per pound or meters per gram (or 100 grams or other metric unit). Even then, that number is only ever *approximate*.
Unfortunately the numbers have become muddied and are now used interchangeably. For those who say I'm wrong, I suggest they take a look the Jaggerspun Yarns website to see that they *still* identify their worsted (ring spun) yarns as 2/x, 2/y, 2/z.
The numbers do not tell a weaver everything they need to know about a yarn. Only by weaving with it, using different densities and weave structures, and then wet finishing it, will a weaver know the potential locked within the yarns that they are using.
I received complimentary copies of the last two issues of the Guild of Canadian Weavers bulletin. Jane Stafford is doing a column for the bulletin and she addressed this issue of needing to weave, weave, weave samples in order to understand how a cloth is brought to life, to serve its purpose with integrity.
If someone wants to really delve into the craft, Jane is crafting a series of on line classes that I strongly suggest everyone take. If you sign up now you get access to all of the presentations. She is taking this entire year to take a deep dive into twills.
Strongly recommended for people who want to understand this craft below the surface.
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5 comments:
I've always thought that numbers like 2/8 were just a regional variation of the 8/2 used to.
Now you're implying that it has to do with the spinning technique, aren't you? (It's not terribly explicit.) If so, how does that translate to other fibres?
Take colourmart, for instance: They're selling all their yarns with the ply/weight numbers. I can't imagine silk or even linen being spun as what amounts to woolen.
Hmm - I didn't mean to imply, I meant to state that there *IS* a difference in how the fibres have been spun.
And yes, some of the shorter silk fibres (noils and such) are spun in an open end (woollen) manner.
A linen spinner would have to answer re: spinning linen that way - perhaps tow linen? I can't say for sure because I haven't studied how linen is spun beyond the basics.
My first real exposure to technical spinning was when we started purchasing the cotton yarn I needed directly from the spinning mill. They wanted to know what quality of yarn I needed - how many twists per inch for the single and the ply, etc. Then Judith Mackenzie talked about the ordering of the numbers. Jaggerspun as mentioned still lists their worsted as 2 ply, x count, not x count, 2 ply.
As the production of yarn moved out of the hands of home industry into mills, the knowledge got lost. When people were only given the choice of one kind of quality of yarn, that became their 'standard'. It was when I compared the two qualities of yarn and tried to find out the difference that it all became clear to me. The order of the numbers has become standardized to the US way of listing them in spite of the results being very clearly NOT the same.
The sad thing is that when you don't know what you don't know, you don't know that you don't know it.
When we know better, we should try to do better. And so I explain this to weavers and hope that will bring understanding. And if not understanding, I challenge weavers to at least observe the differences and then use the yarns appropriately...
Thanks for this post, Laura. I've sure seen the photo before, and read your previous posts on the topic, but somehow 'caught' more of it here. I'm still confused about whether the 2/8 cotton you buy from Brassard and the 8/2 cotton I buy from Brassard is the same, but don't know that either of us have the answer to that. Unless we send each other bits of our yarns. I can say that I find Brassard's 8/2 cotton to be highly superior to some other brands I've purchased. Much softer and more consistent, for one thing.
Brassard began labelling their 2/8 as 8/2 for the American market. If you go to their website and select the French pages, they still use 2/8. Or they did, last time I looked. And yes, it sometimes takes time before understanding is absorbed.
Thank you for this clear explanation. As a spinner turned weaver, I have been confused by all of those numbers on cones, especially when it comes to Imperial numbers. It's almost too much to wrap one's head around. Then in spinning, it's the tpi, wpi, angle of twist, grist weights, ypp,Bradford counts,Micron Count, Blood count etc. Sometimes my head just swims. But am glad I learned to spin first, it helps me understand weaving better. Will look into Jane's classes.
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